torque converter slip actual vs desired

For additional technical information about the cookies used by the analytics service, see their "Google Analytics Cookie Usage on Websites" page; for your reference when reviewing that page, we did not use Google Analytics 4. The first automatic transmissions employed what was called a fluid coupling to connect the crankshaft with the transmission. Sep 16, 2013 #11 4 Starting in Drive provided a maximum starting ratio of 3.10:1 (a mechanical ratio of 1.44:1 times a nominal torque converter stall ratio of 2.16:1 at around 1,600 rpm), which was better than the early Ultramatic or Dynaflow, but still made for lazy performance, especially with Studebakers six-cylinder engine. The drive fan moves air across the blades of the driven fan (which is turned off). A tracking pixel, sometimes known as a web beacon, is a tiny image file that loads from a remote server; it's a type of embedded content (as is the button itself, which loads from the same domain). This setting is stored in your browser (or other user agent) in the gdpr[consent_types] cookie described in "Privacy and Cookie Preferences" above, so if you delete that cookie or access the Ate Up With Motor website from a different device, browser, or user agent, you will need to adjust this setting again if you still wish to hide the box. However, that did not cure the shuddering problem. Cloudflare Ray ID: 7c0ed4b42f522a79 For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. This is why a disc clutch must be disengaged or the transmission shifted to neutral whenever the vehicle stops. * Various services, specials, or coupon offers are available at participating locations only. If the payment button is visible, it may set the third-party cookies PYPF (via paypalobjects.com, which is owned by PayPal, Inc.), which appears to check whether or not you are a logged-in PayPal user, possibly to facilitate the PayPal user login process, and/or 01A1 (via abmr.net, which is owned by Akamai Technologies), which stores certain technical information about your device and browser (or other user agent), possibly to facilitate the login and shopping cart functions. With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. Google, AdSense, Google AdSense, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. Second, consider draining and filling the transmission a few times since you can't get all the fluid out with just one drain/fill cycle. The stator is called the middleman because it serves as the conduit that reverses transmission fluid and sends it back to a turbine impeller. My truck was still putting down 575 on Dunbar's dyno with 100 RPM of slip.. im seeing 20rpm slip at most on my KEM 345, i know thats different. There is more demand in today's market for increased comfort and safety in cars. I found the cause of the P0325 and P0330 error codes. This sounds really great, and it is. Aaron is probably now the best informed person in the world regarding the history of automatic transmission development, I appreciate the compliment, but Im really not! Think of it this way, a well built converter, 10" may slip 4-5%, if yours slips 6-7% higher, you are baking the fluid, cooking the band, and compromising the clutches, and giving up mph and ET. Contact Us - Diagnosing a potential Torque Converter problem with a Scan tool. In the Packard Ultramatic transmission, the input shaft drives the hub of the direct drive clutch and the input sun gear of the Ravigneaux gearset (all colored medium blue). Your car shudders almost as if it's caught the flu and has a temperature. As these vehicles age, diagnosing these issues can become more challenging. I cant imagine the hours of work which you must have put into understanding these various transmissions, to say nothing of writing up a description that a simpleton like me could (mostly) understand. of course it could be logging falsely No, that just means its not locking, or the pid isn't reading right. Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:39 am, Post What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. You must be at least 18 to comment. California residents also have the Right to Opt-Out of the sale of their personal information see the Do Not Sell My Personal Information page. The stator redirects fluid from the turbine to the impeller, radically increasing the force of the fluid entering the impeller and multiplying the torque input from the engine. I switched from a junk converter slipping that much to a tight well built version and picked up .3 and 4mph behind a healthy smallblock (10.2's at 127mph) If the engine is not running smoothly and/or delivering consistent power, it can cause fluctuation in the "Desired" versus "Actual" torque converter clutch slippage along with a surging feeling. Akamai is a registered trademark or service mark of Akamai Technologies, Inc. in the United States (Reg. Required fields are marked *. works great no real problems. Privacy Statement - The second thing to look for is a lot of slippage between Desired and Actual readings for the TCC in Forscan. This will cause damage to both the transmission and the converter. That's because torque converters transfer the power your car engine makes to the transmission in your car. You only monitor it when the converter is locked. Do you want them slipping when driving? Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. For more information about what data PayPal services collect and how that data may be used, visit the "Legal Agreements for PayPal Services" page to review the PayPal Privacy Statement and Statement on Cookies and Tracking Technologies that apply in your location (the Statement on Cookies and Tracking Technologies that applies to each region is linked from within the applicable PayPal Privacy Statement). Achieving a true 1:1 speed relationship between the turbine and the impeller is not possible with a non-lockup torque converter since it is still a fluid coupling. Theshuddering makes the car lagand is very noticeable. This is most noticeable from about 1200-1800 rpm. Unfortunately, additional stall speed also increases the slippage in the converter. Once your torque converter starts failing, you need to be knowledgeable about what torque converter problems will disable your car? For more information about Google advertising, see the "Advertising" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site. The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). The speed difference between impeller and turbine is simply lost to heat within the operating fluid. & Tm. The TCC solenoid regulates the fluid pressure to the clutch. Theglobal torque converter marketcontinues to grow and expand at a CAGR of 4.54%, which is projected until 2021. its the mechanically controlled aod. The confusion stems from the symptoms of a failing transmission, and a failing torque converter is very similar and linked. By logging into your account, you agree to our. In this design, the two basic components in the fluid coupling are the impeller blades (the drive side), which are connected to the engine, and the turbine blades (the driven member), which are splined to the input shaft of the transmission. When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Your IP: Change Background Color (Note: This option sets cookies on your device to manage your color settings; see the Cookie Notice for details.). This is due in part to the technological advances in torque converters. Your Transmission Gear Ratio at Finish Line. Except as otherwise indicated, all written content and images are copyright Aaron Severson dba Ate Up With Motor. When you submit a comment, you may have the option save your information for future comments, storing the info in these cookies. Many of the other listed cookies are associated with the Google Analytics service, the Google AdSense advertising service, and/or other Google advertising and measurement products, which are subject to the Google Privacy Policy; see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page, the "Information for Visitors of Sites and Apps Using Google Analytics" section of the Google Analytics "Safeguarding your data" help page, the "Technologies" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site, and the "Our advertising and measurement cookies" section of the Google Business Data Responsibility site (which includes a detailed list of cookies associated with Google advertising and measurement products) for more information. Therefore, a lockup clutch needs to be accompanied by some mechanism to selectively engage or disengage the clutch. Over 10 RPM is real slip. Thanks for copying the information from my other post here. Desired is what the PCM is commanding and Actual is how much it is actually slipping measured in RPM. Most street cars cannot keep the rear tires from spinning if you add too much throttle, and this tends to limit the stall speed. A malfunctioning torque converter can have a shudder that comes from the transmission. Come join the discussion about diesel performance, modifications, EGR deletes, troubleshooting, lift kits, tires, wheels, maintenance, and more! if you dont hammer on it everyday it will last you a long time.. my stock converter had 350 rpms of slip on Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. If you shop at Amazon.com (for anything), use this link to support FordFlex.net! The torque converter of the future will have a carefully tuned control strategy, which takes into account the torque demands of each vehicle. Hydraulic slippage also offers some advantages during acceleration: As with a plate clutch, a certain amount of slip makes for a much smoother takeoff. Forum. I have yet to read this monumental work in depth. This is a red flag that lets you know you may need an expert to repair it for you. check out the. I've got reason to believe my torque converter is going out, which readings can I look at to determine if that's actually my problem? I took it to my mechanic and he too found nothing wrong. How exactly are you measuring how much the tc is slipping? It was followed in fairly short order by the 1950 Studebaker Automatic Drive, which took a somewhat different approach to the same problem. This has been a quick jaunt through world of torque converters, but it should at least inspire some intelligent questions to ask your converter company of choice as to the best converter for your application. Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Terms of Service - As an example, replace your spark plugs if they are original, replace air filter, replace PCV valve. Clutch material, bearing and bushing pieces, and a shiny metal flake appearance will be an indicator that things are coming apart inside. However, Wilson gearboxes were quite bulky and complex because the nature of their operation required a separate set of epicyclic gears for each ratio, including reverse. Locking the converter with a scan tool bypasses the tune and verifies everything mechanical is in order. The torque converter is made up of five parts: 1. With the clutch engaged, Ultramatic also transmitted some drivetrain vibration that the torque converter would otherwise have absorbed. With automated hydraulic operation and combinations of brakes and clutches, it was possible to get the same results more efficiently. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. I did the trans relearn today with the Spartan 275 tune. The torque converter is so essential to the global car market theres a global torque converter market. With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. I think you should check the fluid level first and foremost. The problems come in many sizes, shapes, and forms. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. Please register or login to enable Dark Mode. On some prewar bus and rail car transmissions with lockup torque converters, the lockup clutch was engaged manually, but automotive lockup clutches are designed to engage and disengage automatically. *. Almost no one thinks of it, but when you drive your automatic transmission car, you're master over your cars torque converter. One is turned by the enginge. They normally expire in just under one year, but you can delete the cookies in your browser (or other user agent) at any time. Cookies whose names begin with "optimizely" are associated with the Optimizely digital experience platform (which is subject to the Optimizely Privacy Policy; the "Privacy" section of the Optimizely Trust Center provides additional information about Optimizely privacy practices, including a link to the Data Processing Agreement that applies to personal data the Optimizely services process on customers' behalf that may be subject to certain regional privacy and/or data protection laws, while their "Cookies and localStorage in the Optimizely snippet" help page provides additional technical information about the cookies and/or similar technologies used by that platform). Such cookies and/or stored data items may be set by various domains (such as, though not necessarily limited to, youtube.com; youtube-nocookie.com; googlevideo.com; ytimg.com; google.com; accounts.google.com; www.googleadservices.com; and/or doubleclick.net, which is part of the DoubleClick advertising service, also owned by Google LLC). When you experience fluid leaks, you aren't retaining the amount of transmission fluid; the torque converter needs to transfer the power from the engine to the transmission. You can't be sure the slipping or shuddering has anything to do with your torque converter until you check your fluid levels. JavaScript is disabled. The information below will outline the most common torque converter issues and their solutions. It stays between 0 and 5 RPM when locked. JavaScript is disabled. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. Your email address will not be published. By changing the angle of the impeller blades, the torque-converter manufacturer can create a converter that generates a given stall speed with a certain torque multiplication. Like the contemporary Buick Dynaflow, Ultramatic was designed to operate most of the time in its direct drive top gear. As the new owner of a 92 Alante with the viscous clutch I wondered what the difference was. The TC is a viscous coupling. i called a trans shop and he had no answer,but it sounded strage to him. . Click to reveal Primary symptom includes a "rumble strip" like sound randomly while driving at speeds of about 40+. We may sometimes present an alternative version of the sidebar offering different options, which may set the a11y-desaturated, a11y-high-contrast, and/or a11y-larger-fontsize cookies if you change those settings. .. makes you appreciate the thought and consideration that goes into EFILive if only we could clone the boys (and girls) of EFILive, imagine a Delphi Ross and Bosch Ross, By WS600 in forum General (Petrol, Gas, Ethanol), By Bradazz in forum 4speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T42), By joecar in forum 4speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T42), 6 speed/8 speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T43, T76, T87), http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.012-T43-Tables, If this is your first visit, be sure to With no slip at all. (not Diameter) Im not able to provide repair or maintenance advice, sorry! Most Torque Converters today also use a friction clutch to lock up the converter at higher speeds to create more fuel efficiency and less slip. When you coast in gear, the transmission attempts to drive the engine crankshaft, whose inertia causes a braking effect. T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip. Fluid clutches fluid couplings and torque converters have many advantages for automotive transmissions, but with those benefits comes a cost: fuel-wasting hydraulic slippage even at cruising speed. In third gear, the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DGs lockup clutch drives the transmissions output shaft at engine speed, providing a completely mechanical direct drive with no hydraulic slippage. As youll see if you look at the first one, the original iteration had three speeds forward and one reverse, for which it requires four epicyclic gearsets. What to Do to Fix Overheating and Seal Damage. In first, the low band and one-way clutches held both sun gears, causing the ring gears to drive the planet carrier and output shaft at 43.3% of turbine speed (1 / 2.31). Think of it as two fans facing eachother inside an enclosure. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -. A spring-loaded plunger valve controlled oil flow to the lockup clutchs hydraulic cylinder. Borg-Warner continued to sell the DG series for several more years to some non-U.S. customers, but U.S. automakers would not rediscover the lockup clutch for another 20 years. Lockup clutches were used in some nonautomotive torque converters before World War II, but the first regular-production automotive application was the 1949 Packard Ultramatic Drive, which established a model for subsequent transmission designs. To fix the problem, you need to discover the seal that's damaged and have it replaced. The cookies are not set at all unless you select that option when submitting a comment. what is the protocol using AE to diagnosis torque slip. abs thank you for posting your experience here. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. I re-used the "new" valve body and decided to try out my original solenoid pack to avoid having to reprogram the PCM with the new calibration for the solenoid pack that came with the recycled transmission. Stall speed is measured in the car by applying the brakes and revving the engine in First gear against the brakes. There are tried and true methods for fixing the five common torque converter issues. So when the torque converter clutch engages there should be almost 0rpm difference between tc slip desired and tc slip act. Heat is the enemy of any automatic transmission and will radically reduce its life span if not mediated by an efficient trans cooler. (author diagram). Privacy Policy. Any slip is bad. When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. The faster it spins, the more force it provides, which causes the fluid to flow faster and harder. As you can see I was experiencing multiple issues, all of which were exacerbating the clutch slippage and/or shuddering issue. Torque converter seals can get damaged for several reasons. If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. Crazy Egg is a trademark of Crazy Egg, Inc. Optimizely is a registered trademark of Optimizely, Inc. in the United States, EU, and elsewhere. Click to reveal I no longer monitor the forum, please either post your question or create a, I am just trying to see how the management of this company can justify ignoring, or walking away from the T43 stuff right now, I am aware of the size of the Dodge Diesel market.I for one do not care about Dodge Cummins products, I have turned so many of my customers onto EFI Live from HPT or SCT that it kills me to have to tune a TCM with one software and ECM with another. Many aftermarket companies offer performance lockup torque converters that can provide a higher stall speed without sacrificing the advantages of the lockup converter for highway use. Another fascinating article, thank you for all your effort! In certain cases, multiple iterations of either or both of these cookies may be set. They normally expire after about one year. But the most common torque converter problems are listed below. (Both turbines, here colored medium blue, were bolted together into a single unit, but had different blade profiles.) So far the bogging down hasn't happened since last week. For comparison, a four-speed Wilson pre-selector has four planetary gearsets, four sets of brake bands, and a cone clutch, which is a lot of pieces. The one for torque slip desired is 1020 rpm. It's also important not to undersell converter weight as a contributing factor to maximizing acceleration. With the torque slip PID on the DashDAQ. It will also integrate that knowledge with what type of car and transmission consumers are buying. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Currently the vehicle is much better to drive. Only lasts from .5 seconds to 2 seconds. If you change certain aspects of the site's appearance using the accessibility sidebar, it may set these cookies to manage and remember your settings. (Google, DoubleClick, YouTube, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. Because of the lack of traction and limited tires, it's not critical that a street engine launch at peak-torque rpm. Archive - A flyweight 2,800-pound car like an early Mustang or Chevy II could use less multiplication to successfully launch on their relatively smaller rear tires. Multiple different problems, some transmission related, some engine related, all resulting in driveability issues. When starting, the fluid clutchs driving torus (the impeller) may reach a speed of 2,000 rpm or more before the driven torus (the turbine) begins to move at all, a point known as stall. With the advent of overdrive automatic transmissions like the TH200-4R, the TH700-R4/4L60E, the massive 4L80E, the Ford AOD, and all the rest, the new-car companies were striving for improved fuel economy using overdrive. by Silver Flex SEL. Transmission Range) start a datalog or have an assistant drive and watch Torque Converter Slip Actual (TCA) and Torque Converter Slip Desired (TCD). However, the cookie may remain on your device for as long as the settings of your browser (or other user agent) permit. Not all the listed cookies and/or data items are necessarily set in all instances, and there may sometimes be others not listed above, particularly if you are logged into a Google account. Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:33 am, Post There are many different types oftorque converter problems. I would be surprised if this is your issue at 81,000 miles. Introduced for the 1950 model year, Studebakers Automatic Drive was developed in partnership with Borg-Warner and was more broadly known as the DG series, after the Borg-Warner Detroit Gear Division that did much of the development work. In this diagram, the yellow arrows show the power flow in second gear. If you correctly enter the password, the site saves this cookie on your device to allow you access to the password-protected post or page. For more information about how Akamai may collect, process, and/or use personal data, visit the Akamai "Privacy and Policies" page and Privacy Trust Center. the only readings i got was for all the electronically controlled aod. The space ahead of the clutch formed a hydraulic cylinder containing an annular steel piston that acted as a pressure plate. Performance & security by Cloudflare. Welcome to the dark world of torque converters. This is not an official website of any automaker or automotive brand! Vehicle weight is another major factor that should be considered when selecting a converter. However, such a lockup clutch cant remain locked all the time. Studebaker-Packard (the two companies merged in 1954) dropped both of these transmissions after the 1956 model year. To learn more about what information the Vimeo platform collects and how that information may be used, see the Vimeo Privacy Policy. but the question is when i put my buddys obd code finder on it. Its free and only takes a minute, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. Obviously some sort of mechanism would have been required to determine what gear to select and when to actually shift, but starting with a Wilson box at least some of the problems would have been solved. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. Most street torque. Think of a lock TC as the clutches in your tranny. This is not a huge factor in the overall lower-e.t. Your email address will not be published.

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